Tas pruebas del Homeland Security

[Panasig45]

Los inicios:

Tomado de http://www.govexec.com/features/0604-15/0604-15s1.htm

Estas pruebas surgen de la necesidad de unificar las armas de las agencias integradas en el nuevo ministerio de seguridad Interior.

It's a timely question, because agents from Customs, INS and the Air Marshals are now in the same agency, the Homeland Security Department's U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement bureau. And they're about to get new handguns. Since February, the world's top gun makers have been in a shootout for the right to sell handguns to ICE. In August, after extensive testing at federal armories in Pennsylvania and Georgia, ICE will pick one or more of them to arm its more than 12,000 law enforcement officers. In a novel arrangement, other agencies in the department also will be allowed to buy pistols through the ICE contract. Up to 45,000 gun carriers could get new weapons.

"This is the largest pistol procurement in the history of U.S. law enforcement," says Wayne Weber, a manager with the German firearms giant Heckler & Koch, one of the top-tier firms competing for the five-year, $25 million contract. Besides H&K, Austrian gun manufacturer Glock, Italy's Beretta, and two American-based manufacturers, Smith & Wesson and SigArms Inc., acknowledge vying for the pact. "We believe that most of the companies will lower their price to land such a large, important contract," says an executive with another of the gun manufacturers, who requested anonymity to speak candidly about the ongoing procurement.

La innovación es que el arma tiene que ser comprada y probada en varios calibres a la vez.

With so many different officers to arm, ICE and its Homeland Security overseers want to maximize their buying options. They are looking for a family of firearms - a .40-caliber, a .357-caliber and a 9 mm - in full/compact and subcompact form (subcompacts are popular with officers who have smaller hands and those who work undercover).

La razòn era que los agentes usaban armas en distintos calibres en las agencias que se unieron,

Agents from both camps wonder whether the bureau will use the procurement to switch its 6,000 agents to a common pistol: the Glock 9 mm used by Customs veterans, or the .40-caliber H&K carried by INS agents. "A lot of people feel this is the turning point," says a former Customs agent. "A lot of INS people want to stay with the .40 [caliber]. A lot of Customs people want to stay with the 9 mm. It's like, which agency are we going to placate?"

Las pruebas iban mas allà de las pruebas XM 9, por ejemplo las armas tenian que hacer 10,000 tiros en lugar de 5000.

At ICE firing ranges, Trotto is putting the pistols through one of the most rigorous testing regimens ever devised, gun manufacturers say. With the help of dozens of officers from CBP, the Coast Guard and the Secret Service, Trotto's team will fire ten thousand rounds with each model. The guns get beat up; they are put in a 200-degree oven for eight hours and dropped on concrete. They are dunked in salt water and sprayed with sand. "We put the [guns] through the wringer to find out what their real performance capabilities are," says Trotto.

 

[Panasig45]

Las pruebas eran rigurosas, dice Dick Metcalf the Shooting Times.

Rigorous Government Tests
Did I say rigorous? When I read the test standards used for the DHS contract, I was amazed. In addition to all the familiar drop tests, accuracy tests, and durability tests that have long been standard parts of law-enforcement and military procurement procedures, the raw stress and abuse the government today expects modern duty pistols to endure is, well, beyond extreme. Here are just a couple of excerpts from the Department of Homeland Security's Performance Description for a Service Pistol Procurement.

Plugged Barrel Test: "An appropriate caliber bullet for the chambered caliber will be pressed into barrel from the breech to a depth of 1.16 inches as measured from the breech. The barrel will be re-installed and the pistol fired using one round of service ammunition. Any barrel deformation or damage will be noted. The test will be repeated, with a second pistol, with a bullet lodged 0.5 inch from the end of the muzzle. Any barrel deformation or damage will be noted."


Sand and Dust Test: "Five (5) fully loaded holstered pistols will be placed in a 43 inch x 21 inch x 25 inch wooden dust test chamber, with the barrel vertical and muzzle down. A 1/10 horsepower motor driving a 500 cubic feet per minute squire cage blower attached to one end of the test chamber will be used to disperse two pounds of Quickrete Play Sand.



The sand will be sifted through an 18 x 14 threads screen to remove the larger particulate. The sand will be gravity fed into the blower intake at a rate not to exceed two (2) pounds per minute, and will be allowed to run for three (3) minutes totaling six (6) pounds of sand. After three (3) minutes, the chamber will be opened and the pistols removed from the holsters. Any loose dust will be shaken from the pistols. The pistol will then be fired. Any malfunctions will be noted."
Department Of Homeland Security Chooses SIG's DAK

The DAK hammer sits below the surface of the slide when at rest while the hammer of conventional DAO mechanisms protrudes above the surface of slide. The new DAK trigger is not as thick as that of a conventional SIG DAO pistol.




Plugged Barrel Test: "An appropriate caliber bullet for the chambered caliber will be pressed into barrel from the breech to a depth of 1.16 inches as measured from the breech. The barrel will be re-installed and the pistol fired using one round of service ammunition. Any barrel deformation or damage will be noted. The test will be repeated, with a second pistol, with a bullet lodged 0.5 inch from the end of the muzzle. Any barrel deformation or damage will be noted."



Sand and Dust Test: "Five (5) fully loaded holstered pistols will be placed in a 43 inch x 21 inch x 25 inch wooden dust test chamber, with the barrel vertical and muzzle down. A 1/10 horsepower motor driving a 500 cubic feet per minute squire cage blower attached to one end of the test chamber will be used to disperse two pounds of Quickrete Play Sand.



The sand will be sifted through an 18 x 14 threads screen to remove the larger particulate. The sand will be gravity fed into the blower intake at a rate not to exceed two (2) pounds per minute, and will be allowed to run for three (3) minutes totaling six (6) pounds of sand. After three (3) minutes, the chamber will be opened and the pistols removed from the holsters. Any loose dust will be shaken from the pistols. The pistol will then be fired. Any malfunctions will be noted."









Salt Water Immersion Test: "Five (5) fully loaded pistols with one (1) extra, fully loaded magazine per pistol will be submerged in a salt-water solution of 5% sodium chloride and 95% distilled water by weight for sixty (60) seconds. The pistols will be removed and held muzzle down to drain the bore and then placed in a climatic chamber at 70F and 70% RH for 24 hours. The fully loaded pistols shall then be fired, re-loaded with the extra magazine and fired again. Results will be noted."

for eight (8) hours. Each pistol and extra magazine will be removed from the climatic chamber and all fired within one (1) minute. Results will be noted. Five (5) fully loaded pistols with one (1) extra, fully loaded magazine per pistol will be placed in a climatic chamber and conditioned to minus 30F for eight (8) hours. Each pistol and extra magazine will be removed from the climatic chamber and fired within one (1) minute. Results will be noted."

Lo de disparar armas con balas en el cañon me parece brutal!

 

[Panasig45]

Los ganadores fueron SIG (P 226, P 229 y P 239) y HK P 2000.

Department Of Homeland Security Awards Handgun Contracts

For Immediate Release
Press Office
Contact 202-282-8010
August 24, 2004

The U.S. Department of Homeland Security announced the award of two contracts today for handguns for all organizational elements within the department, including U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, U.S. Customs and Border Protection, the Transportation Security Administration, the U.S. Coast Guard and the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center.

SIGARMS Incorporated and Heckler & Koch, Incorporated each received a contract award with a maximum quantity of 65,000 pistols that may be purchased over the next five years. SIGARMS Incorporated, a small business located in Exeter, New Hampshire, received a $23.7 million contract for 9 x 19 mm and .40 caliber pistols. Heckler & Koch, a large business located in Sterling, Virginia, received a $26.2 million contract for 9 x 19 mm, .40, and .357 caliber pistols. The two contracts will enable DHS personnel to acquire handguns in three popular law enforcement calibers and a variety of sizes. These contracts represent the results of the department’s Strategic Sourcing Program that is designed to optimize cross-departmental acquisitions through collaboration of agency technical and acquisition experts. The Weapons and Ammunition Commodity Council, part of the strategic sourcing program, identifies and consolidates emerging firearms and ammunition requirements for all Homeland Security components. As part of this effort, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) released a Request for Proposals in February 2004 for the procurement of handguns. The ICE National Firearms and Tactical Training Unit led the ensuing evaluation.

“This type of multiple contract award will provide the government the flexibility it needs to enable the DHS entities to address their diverse operational missions, while still maximizing logistical efficiencies found through standardization,” said Thomas Trotto, Director of the ICE National Firearms and Tactical Training Unit.

The technical evaluation of the proposals included a comprehensive handgun test protocol involving a rigorous battery of environmental, reliability, durability, and other tests. Approximately three million rounds of ammunition were fired through 690 handguns of 46 different models during the testing, which took almost four months to complete. Aside from the actual live firing, additional testing was conducted through laboratory analysis and armory inspections. In all, each model was evaluated against more than 50 characteristics before arriving at a technical rating. This data was used in conjunction with past performance and pricing information to select the winning contractors.

The Homeland Security Weapons and Ammunition Commodity Council continues to analyze the department’s requirements for weapons, ammunition, and other officer safety products to identify additional strategic sourcing opportunities."

http://www.defensereview.com/sigarms-and-heckler-kochhk-defense-win-major-pistol-contracts-with-dhs/

 

[Panasig45]

Lo que es mas importante estas pruebas sirven como base para las pruebas del Joint Combat Pistol, las cuales por ahora estan suspendidas por falta de recurso y por estarse reconsiderando el tema .40 SW vs .45 ACP.

Se pueden leer los pliegos aquí.

https://www.fbo.gov/index?tabmode=form&subtab=step1&tabid=cbb7861f8b477e25c00d58d53dcceef1

 

[aaronmg27]

...

La información está muy interesante, lástima los datos de prueba que deber ser clasificados, yo por ahí tengo todas las exigencias técnicas del Joint Cobat Pistol y son muy similares a los XM9, incluso en algunas cosas más flexibles.

Saludos.

:cheers:

 

[KIKI2007]

Los ganadores fueron SIG (P 226, P 229 y P 239) y HK P 2000.



http://www.defensereview.com/sigarms-and-heckler-kochhk-defense-win-major-pistol-contracts-with-dhs/

Hola

A que atribuyes que Beretta no haya quedado entre los ganadores?

De Glock y S&W se entiende, pero porqué no Beretta?

Saludos

 

[Albertopad]

Interesante la información que nos comparte PanaSig45, esta para el analisis.

 

[aaronmg27]

Hola

A que atribuyes que Beretta no haya quedado entre los ganadores?

De Glock y S&W se entiende, pero porqué no Beretta?

Saludos

Por eso digo que lástima que no se conocen los datos de prueba, así sabríamos que fue lo que pasó.

Saludos.

:cheers:

 

[Artillero941]

Esperemos algun dia se filtrara la informacion y sabremos los resultados reales de cada arma, aunque tambien cada fabricante aplica su propia teoria como ha sucedido siempre.

 

[Panasig45]

De Glock y S&W se entiende, pero porqué no Beretta?

Me imagindo dos cosas.

1. Las pruebas fueron en varios calibres a la vez, las Beretta en .40 y .357 Sig tienen fama de frágiles comparadas con sus hermanas en 9mm Para. Creo que este es el mismo problema de Glock.

2. La mayoría de las agencias son agencias que operan de civil, La Migra, Air Marshals, y la Beretta es una pistola grande. Fijese que los ganadores fueron armas relativamente compactas menos la SIG 226.

 

[Albertopad]

Por eso digo que lástima que no se conocen los datos de prueba, así sabríamos que fue lo que pasó.

Saludos.

:cheers:

Esperemos algun dia se filtrara la informacion y sabremos los resultados reales de cada arma, aunque tambien cada fabricante aplica su propia teoria como ha sucedido siempre.

Ojala si se filtrara la información con el tiempo para ver de fondo estos resultados.

 

[aaronmg27]

...

Me imagindo dos cosas.

1. Las pruebas fueron en varios calibres a la vez, las Beretta en .40 y .357 Sig tienen fama de frágiles comparadas con sus hermanas en 9mm Para. Creo que este es el mismo problema de Glock.

2. La mayoría de las agencias son agencias que operan de civil, La Migra, Air Marshals, y la Beretta es una pistola grande. Fijese que los ganadores fueron armas relativamente compactas menos la SIG 226.

Y aún siendo la versión grande la P226 es más pequeña que la Beretta 92, la P229 es significativamente más pequeña que la Beretta.
Definitivamente hace falta una Beretta 92 realmente compacta con 1.5" menos de cañón y de 13 tiros en 9mm. ó 11 de .40S&W, de pasada solo con decocker, con ergo Vertec de cañón inoxidable y con miras Meprolight, algo así como una 90-Two Compacta. Definitivamente le haría la competencia a SIG.

Saludos.

 

[TF]

Estas pruebas fueron de las más completas y serias que se hayan realizado hasta ahora....

Sólo puedo agregar que Todd Green (ex tirador oficial y empleado de Beretta, Sig y otros, creo que ahora trabaja para S&W) ha dicho públicamente en varios foros que la calidad y QC de Sig está en declive desde hace como 5 años (justo después del brillante desempeño en esta pruebas), cuando empezaron a subcontratar componentes para rebajar costos. No ahorra elogios para las Sig mas viejas.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34219
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=35120

 

[Panasig45]

Moraleja, compren SIG alemanas o suizas. La Kgda de SIGARMs USA es que los nuevos administradores son los mismo idiotas que fueron botados de Kimber.

Que tanto daño le hicieron a Kimber por la misma razón, subcontratar piezas a perico de los palotes.
Yo no entiendo que enseñan el los MBA gringos.

 

[TF]

El problema es que según la misma fuente (creo que está en los links que puse?) la matriz de Sig quedó tan contenta con los "savings" de SIGARMs USA que ahora esta misma persona es el CEO de todo el grupo Sig...

 

[Panasig45]

Pero cuando la calidad de las SIG alemanas o suizas decline entoces vamos a ver que opinan de los "savings".

 

[TF]

Ojalá que reaccionen a tiempo, es cuestión de no doblegarse ante los costos y la competencia, mantener la calidad y QC de piezas por encima de todo y esperar que el comprador reconozca este esfuerzo y esté dispuesto a pagar un poco de más ...lo que tradicionalmente Sig siempre ha hecho.

Probablemente es un problema que aqueja a todos, fabricar buenas armas pero con filosofía de "good enough" en vez de "as good as can be"... tal vez el único que se salva por el momento es HK.

 

[Panasig45]

Mientras tanto, busca todas las SIGs alemanas de los noventa que puedas en buen estado y compralas.
Ya empiezan a tomar valor de colección.

Creo que cuando los SEALs y otras agencias que usan SIGs empiezen a quejarse van a ver.

Pero el bajón de calidad se inició al SIG mover su producción a los USA debido a que los alemanes no se daban abasto en producir armas para los USA debido a la alta demanda pese al elevado costo ya que la gente buscaba la calidad.
Se mueve la producción a los USA para cortar costos y la calidad de las SIG gringas no es la misma que la de las alemanas, eso va terminar afectando la demanda.

Si quiero un arma "good enough" en lugar de una "as good as can be" me compro una Glock.

De hecho hace unos meses hice esto!